(no subject)

[drquuxum.livejournal.com]

One of the joys of working in a scientific/academic environment is that many individuals are enlightened enough to ditch Windows in favour of OS X or Linux. One of the drawbacks is that they have little experience with those GUIs, and thus they expect me, at least at first, to do some of the excruciatingly simple tasks. The following user, however, seems to either regress and forget even the basics of computer usage, or is just too lazy to do anything herself.

She uses Linux/Gnome (keep your flamewars to yourselves, please ;-) and for some reason her Desktop Switcher and Window List applets disappeared. My message to her was as follows:

"Right-click in an empty part of the Panel (the large light gray bar along the bottom or top of the screen). In the menu that appears, click `Add to panel'. A window with a list appears. Scroll to the bottom of the list and click on `Window List', then hit `Add'. Repeat this process for the `Desktop Switcher'."

Her reply, paraphrased:

"No, this is too complicated. Please come do it for me."

Okay now. The hardest part of that whole set of instructions was finding out what "Panel" is, which I spelled out for her. Everything else is either clicking, right-clicking, scrolling, and reading. She's been doing these for years now. Either she's so unconfident in her skills that she requires constant spoon-feeding, or she's purposely trying to give me an aneurysm. The latter looks like a decent bet.

Comments

[the-s-guy.livejournal.com]

"No, this is too complicated. Please come do it for me."

Sure! One of our reps will become available in May. Two thousand nine. Would you like to book ahead?

[xforge.livejournal.com]

PreCISEly. We're understaffed and extremely busy and since you've stated that following a ridiculously simple set of instructions is "too hard" for you, your needs are very low on the priority scale. So, please wait until you grow cobwebs and we'll be along shortly thereafter. For whatever value of "shortly" we feel appropriate.

[the-s-guy.livejournal.com]

"We'll be sending a midget."

[tecie.livejournal.com]

See, that would piss me off to no end.
Windows users I can understand pulling that, because most of them were dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
But someone using linux should have SOME concept of the very simple tasks. It's not an OS for non geeks (yet).
And to be honest, I can see why 99% of helpdesks flat out won't assist on linux. there's 159^12 differnt distributions, about half of whom have hacked the kernel or window manager in some way so the whole system behaves differently then any other distro out there.
[/rant]

[drquuxum.livejournal.com]

This is why I support only (technically) two distros: Fedora and RHEL. Note that I include stuff like CentOS and Scientific Linux in RHEL.

[xforge.livejournal.com]

"No, this is too complicated. Please come do it for me."

Reply: "I am not your Mommy. Learn to use the tools you're given to do your job, or please be my guest and go apply at Wal-Mart."

[arkady.livejournal.com]

"Arse-enablement is hard. Let's go shopping!!"

[geeveecatullus.livejournal.com]

maybe she is flirting with you!

[trixtah.livejournal.com]

Just to interrupt the general Windows bashing here - users like that are useless on Windows as well. So the woman has had possibly 10 years to get used to Windows (and I bet she lost the Start Menu or bottom bar at some time), has undoubtedly had much hand-holding over the years, yadda yadda, and you're surprised she has problems with a new system, why?

Some people are useless with computers. Just like some people are useless drivers. Some people freak out if they find a different desktop theme on their machines, much less a different OS. So while I think she was somewhat pathetic in refusing to follow instructions, this crap happens all the time.

The reason that Windows and Macs have been so successful is that they reduce the level of utterly-useless-computer-users to manageable levels. Most of the time. The rest of the time those users need much hand-holding, because they have encountered something out of their narrow range of computer-comprehension.

The reason *nix users have needed less hand-holding is that they have historically been geeks who use computers for a living, or have a deep hobby interest in them. It's only in maybe the last 1-2 years that we are beginning to see Linux seriously touted as being a desktop OS. Once you remove any system from the hallowed church of the techies and allow normal people - whose life does NOT revolve around computers - to use them, of course they are going to come up with new and creative ways to screw up. And freak out.

To use another analogy, how many techies know how to do simple maintenance jobs on their cars - change the oil, do a simple lube job, tune the engine, even change the brake pads? I bet the majority of you just expect to get into your cars and drive, and maybe take it to the mechanic once a year for a service. And scream and cry at the mechanic when something goes wrong. Well, the majority of users are like that too - their computer is just a tool to do their real job. Of course, in this instance, the user is effectively complaining about not being able to find the indicator when it's on the other side of the steering wheel - but I've known people to freak about that for real in a car too!

Getting back to the point, our job is to make sure those computers keep working, and that the users can use them. So long as someone else is the accountant and someone else is the manager and someone else cleans the bloody toilets, I'm happy to do my job if they do theirs.

[trixtah.livejournal.com]

Bugger. This rant isn't exactly directed to the OP, but to someone further downthread who started in on useless windows users.

But my point about people having limited computer comprehension remains - if they aren't familar with how something looks, they tend to freak. Of course, if you have a choice, and you're unfamilar with something new (like a GUI), it's perhaps best not to experiment at work.

[drquuxum.livejournal.com]

Let me put it this way -- she has been using Linux &| Unix for at least a decade. Only recently have I pulled her away from FVWM to Gnome. She only uses Windows sparingly for Powerpoint, and AFAIK she's never touched a Mac.

Her major problem is accepting that old software sometimes no longer works on newer machines and operating systems, and vice-versa. It was only when I put THE FEAR OF GOD into her that she finally gave up her 8-year-old, RH7.3 machine.

[jecook]

Heh. I'm getting ready to do and oil change on my car this weekend, and maybe take the driver's left brake down to see why's it's squeaking...

Granted, my car has, for the past three years, been my primary source of income (Field service, required to use own car), so it behooves me to keep it rolling as best as I can. Plus some of the tasks to do so are insanely stupid easy (such as the brakes) on it.

[attackgypsy.livejournal.com]

I supported Windows 98 for a major jewelry company with over 10k people in stores. (They run the jewelry counter in some of the largest stores in the country, like... Filene's, Mays, Lord and Taylor, etc.)

You have no idea how much people paniced when they found that their Start menu was on the side or the top. And they came screaming at us. Some were honestly afraid they'd get fired for breaking their comp. I finally said they hell with it, and stopped even telling them how to fix it and just PCAnywhere'd into their systems.

Half the problem was that they used the modem line to call us on.

[the-s-guy.livejournal.com]

Yup. When the mechanic tells me "Oh, I just discovered something that will cost half the original price of the car to fix", I take a deep breath and scream silently, then say to myself:

1) You can pay the repair cost and have a car, sell the car for scrap and buy another, or learn how to take care of your own car, dumbass.

2) For the moment, I need the convenience of the car more than I need the money.

3) I will make plans to learn about car maintenance, and should I have failed to do so by the next time a huge bill presents itself, I will start at step 1 again.

I then grit my teeth, pay what they ask, and hope to hell that it was worth it.

I don't see myself learning to the point where I can chopshop three cars into one, because hardware-wise, cars always appeared far too organic and analogue for me. With a PC, a part either fits or it doesn't (unless you're casemodding). If a socket is wrong you can either get an adaptor or you can't. It's Lego, and very digital.

With cars, there are a hell of a lot more standards to keep track of. Each model has completely different external panelling - except where it doesn't. Parts which can be used in one car can be used in another - except where they can't - except where they can. The entire shape of cars and the space you can pack components into can be wildly different from one model to the next. The parts cost anything up to a couple of thousand dollars each. And each part not only has "working perfectly" and "trash" modes, it can have a range of sometimes-working, possibly broken, possibly cracked, possibly affected by the environment or any one of a number of fluids being pumped around, just-not-compatible-with-something-random, who-knows? modes. Messy.

Car assembly from parts is half straightforward, half mechanical, half chaotic, half interior decorating, half electrical, half hydroengineering, half electronic, half legal paperwork and half insane. And when the whole porridge of loose parts moving in formation is put together, you're expected to strap yourself to it and throw it down the road at cheetah speeds, when any one of a thousand things could go wrong and kill you.

We've all said "Oh rats, forgot to put heatpaste on the CPU, that's a $200 puff of smoke." I don't want my last words to be "Oh rats, forgot to put thingy grease on the whatsit, ARGH GIANT FLAMING FIREBALL OF DEATH BUSLOAD OF NUNS".

[tecie.livejournal.com]

Car assembly from parts is half straightforward, half mechanical, half chaotic, half interior decorating, half electrical, half hydroengineering, half electronic, half legal paperwork and half insane.

So making a car takes 4 units of work? ;-)

[gilmoure.livejournal.com]

This is why it's easier to start with building your own motorcycle.

My dream retirement is to go and build my own car, designed on paper and all, welding up the frame, rolling the sheet metal, etc. (but use Chevy drive train-engine, transmission, etc). That would be cool.

[geekgrrl-ca.livejournal.com]

The front brakes on my van have 3 different pad parts to choose from and all of them incompatible with each other.

Long response

[tecie.livejournal.com]

I apologize, but linux is NOT being touted as a desktop replacement OS for normal users by the mainstream linux community at this point.
It's actually a nearly monthly discussion on Slashdot as to where we as geeks want the OS to go.
One camp does agree with you, and wants to crush Microsoft.
Another camp (the camp I tend to agree with) says "Leave Microsoft the people who don't want to know computers"
I am an avid linux user, and I am an *nix administrator professionally. I use windows for a very narrow set of tasks, including VPNing into work (ironically), running simcity 3000 and running WarCraft 3. Other then that,that workstation is turned off so it does not threaten my home LAN by getting hit with something.
One of the biggest reasons that I won't even consider Microsoft products in a production environment except in cases of proprietary software or when management INSISTS on it is because it tries to figure out what you want to do rather then what you tell it to do.
Complicating matters is that it's all behind closed source code so if there's a recurring problem and you're pretty sure it's not on your end, there's no real way to fix the problem without constructing an ugly workaround.
With linux it becomes possible to fix the root of a problem and you can find people with the expertise to truley understand and resolve and issue.
Additionally, a well run *nix system can remain stable for years, while a well run windows system can remain stable as well, but application of patches and hotfixes usually requires a reboot. Therefore the concept of a windows server functionally running for really any length of time is moot.
As per your car analogy, it is false.
Here's why:
A) Drivers are at some point licensed by some state to legally drive (in the US.) Despite some of the more interesting maneuvers I've seen on my local roadways, it is likely that at some point they were deemed competent to operate a motor vehicle by the authorities. This is not true with a computer.
B) Drivers are still required to have some knowledge of the inner workings of their car. They need gas, oil, tires, and inspections. That means at some functional level, the end user (aka the driver) knows that some process is going on that when they drive more often, the gas gage goes down, and when it hits E (hopefully before) they need to stop at some gas station and put more gas in. They also know that you must change the oil every couple of thousand miles. To make their lives easier, most places (in NY at least) will put a sticker in your window reminding you that at $ODOMETER + 3000 you have to come back.

Leave the end users to Windows. As much as I’d love to see a Microsoft free world, it’s just not likely. The vast majority of Linux distros are for specific purposes or by the geeks for the geeks, and that suits me just fine. I also wouldn’t pick up a Teen People magazine and expect to understand or care about most of it.

Getting to your final point, yes, you are absolutely right. The computer is a TOOL for most people to do their jobs. That means they should know how to use it. If I go to work and need to use a shovel, then it's my responsibility to know which end is up and how to dig a hole. The shovel manufacturer should not need a help line that has trained operators on the line saying "no sir, the wide part needs to be pointed down. "
I'm not saying end users need to be able to crack open their favorite hex editor and do their own data recovery. But it's a pretty big leap from end users in a corporate setting who don't know the basics about using a computer.
Further anecdotal evidence to support this is: before computers had widespread use, weren't most people able to use typewriters? Almost everyone I've met from the baby boomer generation knows how to change a ribbon. They also seem capable of navigating the dewey decimal system. This indicates that normal end users have the mental capacity for this, and for whatever reason they are refusing to learn how to use the tools to do their jobs.
I for one won't help people do the most basic functions without documenting it and making sure it shows up on reports. Not knowing the basic use of a fairly standardized GUI environment isn't merely lazy, it's unprofessional.

Re: Long response

[drquuxum.livejournal.com]

I apologize, but linux is NOT being touted as a desktop replacement OS for normal users by the mainstream linux community at this point.

We have no normal users. ;-)

Many of our professors have Linux because they're comfortable with it. They've been working in Unix-y environments for decades, as it's dominated Physics & Astronomy (oops, I've given away my department!) since the late 70's. This sort of environment is still the best in terms of both power and cost for what most of them do -- FORTRAN programming, parallel and distributed computing, community-built applications, and publishing in LaT_EX. Having a web browser, mail client, media player, word processor, spreadsheet, and presentation software on the same machine is gravy.

Re: Long response

[gilmoure.livejournal.com]

I liked it when the math department at my last job used Macs, dual booting Linux. Was such a relief to get a call out there.

[major-error.livejournal.com]

Make it someone else's problem, too...

If management is brought into the continued idiocy of their subordinates on a regular basis, perhaps a clue will be dispensed... ;)

[drquuxum.livejournal.com]

In an academic environment, that sort of logic flies right out the window.

[the-s-guy.livejournal.com]

Perhaps a variant - "Make it someone else's problem, instead."

Preferably someone who has the authority to cause inconvenience for the complainee.

[drquuxum.livejournal.com]

There are other mitigating factors involved that prevent me from doing so...and did I mention I'm the only face-to-face IT personnel they have?

[gilmoure.livejournal.com]

Target?

[the-s-guy.livejournal.com]

I'm the only face-to-face IT personnel they have

So... irreplaceable? Unfireable? Indispensible?

[drquuxum.livejournal.com]

I specialize in Windows/OS X/Linux interoperability, which is the state of things where I am. Not too many others around here are nuts enough to do it.

Ranty McRant

[goose-entity.livejournal.com]

One of my favourite rants, when confronted by similar levels of cluelessness on Windows boxes, is:

"This is the tool the person uses to DO THEIR JOB. If the user cannot use the ESSENTIAL BUSINESS TOOL effectively, this is NOT an issue for IT - it is an issue for HR."

End of Ranty McRant...!

Re: Ranty McRant

[ihateemo.livejournal.com]

That's a good one.

[olafthunderfoot.livejournal.com]

reformat her drive?